Real Estate, Sex & Gossip
THE REAL ESTATE, SEX & GOSSIP PODCAST
W/ Paul Locatelli & Brian DeDiego
What do you get when two very successful realtors sit down and decide to talk openly about everything ? “The Real Estate, Sex & Gossip” podcast is what. Join Paul Locatelli and Brian DeDiego as the unleash a “no filter” conversation each episode where nothing is safe.
REAL ESTATE
Listen in for some dramatic real estate success stories and stay tuned for the balance; some vignettes of business and some personal failures that both have learned from. Real estate market updates & strategies abound each episode…
SEX
Paul was a Versace model in the 90’s …. Brian was buying houses. Brian has since made a cottage industry to find out what the hell was going on at these photo shoots with all those beautiful people and the podcast is his last attempt to force Paul to divulge all the dirty secrets that he is convinced are being hidden.
GOSSIP
Rule #1 : Speak the truth.
Rule #2 : EVERYTHING is on the table
Rule #3 : ApplyRule #1 before detonation.
Brian & Paul will dig into not only trending national gossip, but give time each episode to the local scene ( Including verifying/denying the rumor mill that includes their names )
Guests include national & local celebrities, leaders in business, athletes & entertainers.
Real Estate, Sex & Gossip
Love, Law, Real Estate and the Unpredictable Journey Through Divorce
Have you ever stood amidst the rubble of a home renovation and seen it as a metaphor for divorce? It's messy, unpredictable, and requires expert navigation. Join us as family law attorney Darlene Kemp lends her wisdom and experience.
If you've wondered how modern marriages can withstand the test of time or why some end in a courtroom battle, this episode is your gateway to understanding. We bridge the gap between legal expertise and spiritual reflection, guiding you through the societal changes that have shaped today's divorce landscape. Mike's take on the spiritual implications of marriage and divorce complements Darlene's legal acumen, ensuring you leave with a more nuanced understanding of these complex issues. We don't shy away from discussing the financial sting of attorney fees or the strategic considerations in long-term versus short-term marriages, all while maintaining a thread of relatable humor throughout.
We wrap up with a conversation that could save you from the public spectacle of divorce court. Exploring alternative routes, Darlene underscores the benefits of privacy and emotional well-being when resolving divorce and custody issues privately. And for those contemplating a walk down the aisle again, we tackle the evolving perspective on prenuptial agreements in multiple marriages. So, settle in for a heartfelt, informative, and yes, even entertaining journey through the maze of divorce, where we promise more than a few unexpected turns and valuable takeaways.
This is the real estate sex and gossip podcast.
Speaker 2:Boys girl Brian what the hell we doing, brian well here here we are.
Speaker 3:We're in the the month of love, but before I start the month of love, we just want to thank the Dewick brothers again for housing us in their beautiful facility, again every and what you're hearing in the background as they're upgrading it, and they knew we had this today, but they obviously don't care what's the last podcast talking about permits?
Speaker 2:did they get a permit for this place you go? We may have to turn a mark.
Speaker 3:Matt, matt, I'd be Matt. Oh, fuck it.
Speaker 1:Anyways, wasn't a mark, matt, I'm probably can really tell you we're connected to the last guest but we want to talk about permits.
Speaker 3:I don't fucking pay attention at all we definitely, and what you guys here in the background is the Dewick brothers, and so if you're irritated, you can call you, can? They are drilling each other. You guys can call them direct. But let's move back why we're here. Okay, february, and this podcast was supposed to be on a week ago, on Valentine's Day, and yes it was. It's a month of love, so what we're gonna do is we're gonna talk divorce and money, and we are so lucky right now we have lawyer Darlene Kemp out of Aptos yay, thank you for having me welcome wearing pink for the occasion there we go right.
Speaker 3:So we're we're super excited to have you for multiple reasons, and in our business we have a lot of people that, unfortunately, are going through divorce, but seems like it's in the air right now. And Paul said you know what? Why don't we have a podcast on divorce?
Speaker 1:I think it's great idea all right, I'm not gonna swear, but you're an asshole because there's another guest yeah, you forgot about fucking Mike.
Speaker 2:Okay, mike, what the fuck are you?
Speaker 3:here, mike, aren't you like a priest or son? Why are you here? It might be my past year, it might be what I'm past.
Speaker 1:Sure, brian, it might be where we position him on the podcast, because he's a foot and a half away from your face, facing forward, and my. I'm gonna take that as my fault. Baby, you didn't recognize the gas.
Speaker 3:I love Mike. Mike and I, we had fun on the top of the mountain, didn't we? Yes, we did. We don't need to talk well, worry about it.
Speaker 3:Well, the pastor as you call him and I had a great time the pastor and the pastor so good. What I'd like to do is, darlene, we're, you know we have some questions and things and I have some fun facts about divorce, but I'd like you to kind of just let everybody know who you are, just a little bit of your background, then we'll bounce over to Mike and just a little bit Mike while you're here, and then we'll jump right in. So, darlene, great thanks.
Speaker 5:So I am a rarity and that I'm a local. I grew up in Aptos.
Speaker 5:I've been here almost 50 years and I went to school locally and then I went to law school at Santa Clara yeah came back here to Santa Cruz and originally worked for a grinsky law firm which is now dissolved just recently, but it was around for like 50 years and then I went off on my own and started my own family law practice and I've been practicing law now for be 24 years this year and I specialize in family law. Primarily. I do a little bit of landlord, tenant work for some, for some clients that I've had since the beginning, but primarily my practice is family law, which is encompasses anything from a prenuptial agreement to adoption, divorce, child custody issues, visitation, things like that. So support, so that's, that's what I do.
Speaker 4:Mike, yeah, so I am Michael Howard. I was a pastor for 25 years and I was asked to come here by Paul. Yeah, to round out the conversation a little bit, I guess to provide a spiritual view of conversation. I'm not sure what the details are, so we'll find out as we go along either, do we? So you haven't heard our podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, darlene, I'm gonna start. Your website states attorney, advocate and advisor, and I will disclose that I have personally used Darlene in the past, on the first, second or third, or sorry, the first second. Well, you get a prenup on the third, we're gonna have a problem with the third.
Speaker 3:Darling darling likes her better than me yeah, so Darlene actually just helped me in terms of with my oldest daughter, keana. So Keana what she decided to make a change and she wanted to come move and live over with us full-time and so I sat down with Darlene and she was great doing what? Helping the process. I've handled a lot of my own legal stuff when dealing with divorce, but yeah, how does that go?
Speaker 1:This is not about me.
Speaker 5:I can look at Darlene, so that is to always see counsel, right?
Speaker 3:yes, there you go exactly. Absolutely you don't know what, you don't know until you know. And I was not prepared on the last part of it. We, you know, and I got Darlene came in and she made it nice, I mean, for something that was really rough for myself and my daughter and, of course, probably her mom. But the right things happen and Darlene helped and bottom line is countless with this full-time, I mean, and that's yeah, I love her for that, which she knows, and but she, she did it with compassion too, because you know I was. She kept the focus on on the kids and that's kind of where it was at and that's what I try to do.
Speaker 5:I mean, there's a lot of divorce attorneys obviously out there and I feel like one of my biggest issues with with them is that they tend to focus on the wrong thing.
Speaker 5:And I try to always keep the kids in mind, because they don't ask for the divorce to happen right, they're the innocent victims in the process. And so I feel that if we can always kind of keep in our mind what is best for the kids and also try to remind our clients too, like hey, your, your kids are hearing what you're saying about the other parent, like you need to be aware of what you're doing, what you're saying, because your kids are half you and half him or her, right, so I mean that's really always tried what, what I try to keep in the back of my mind when I'm doing this, because I love kids I have four of them myself, and if I didn't go to law school, I wanted to be a teacher because I I love, you know children and and it's kind of nice because in family law I get to also kind of have that factor too.
Speaker 1:I think it's also one step beyond, like the spoken word, that kids here kids are experts at emotions and feelings and rooms and stuff. And I know a lot of my friends that have gone through divorces. It's not so much what they heard, it's the kind of culture of even sort of the precursor to the divorce that sets like a permanent kind of record in those kids' heads about male-female relationships, respect. All those things can happen even before you start getting to the legal side of the thing. So I think that would be the strange thing to look for as far as a recommendation from an attorney is possibly somebody that can kind of engage emotionally with the process a little bit right.
Speaker 5:Right, yeah. Well, they're like sponges.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And it's all in your tone too. It's not even what you're saying, but how you say it. You know, and kids pick up on that and they are more intelligent than we realize or give them credit for, because also, you think of like a five-year-old and, oh, they don't really know what's going on. But studies have shown that that's not true, and even babies sleeping in their crib can. They've done brain studies and have picked up on how it has impacted them and their growth when they have parents in the room fighting and them hearing that.
Speaker 5:So it's. Yeah, it definitely has more of an impact on them than we, I think, realize or give them credit for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always tell my friends sometimes I think they've created an ecosystem that didn't exist before for the kids. This is going on. I wanna get rid of Paul in my life, which I do I'll talk to you about that later. Good luck, legally, good luck. But I just think you do create a weather front with that that the kids are aware of.
Speaker 3:This seems like a really good spot for you to jump in, mike.
Speaker 2:Well, that's why I brought Mike in. Because, he told me a little fact about divorce and then people who stayed together that are alcoholics or drunks or same thing, or beating or yeah, well, yeah, let's not jump in there Just right there To piggyback a little bit on.
Speaker 4:What you're just sharing, darlene, is that family structure is an ecosystem and I'm just gonna continue not looking at you because of the microphone but the construct of marriage, which sits on a legal platform now here in America, is not necessarily integrated into the spiritual construct of which it came by, and so these conversations get super complex. It's hard to know when to jump in. But when we're talking about marriage, like even now, I'm not sure what we're talking about. I mean, I know what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is something that comes from a 2000 year old document the actual action of marriage as it pertains to Judaism or the Hebrew culture, which is what we're structurally around in America.
Speaker 4:Our legal structure lives in the confines of that culture, as does most of the West, and the legal construct that they had within their system and the reasonings for I'm like how you got married if you were Hebrews, you stuck your member in something. I mean, that's what you were married to. So anytime a man penetrated anything, you are now in some sort of spiritual construct. So the laws are associated with that in the Bible that if a person's unmarried or a female's unmarried and that happens, you're now married to that person, whether you signed a document or not, and the culture was what supported that. So there was not. I mean, there were ceremonies, but it's not the way that we think about it and so I mean I would contradict a lot of what would be perceived as Christian values as it pertains to divorce, because I don't have the same narrative, I don't share it the same way, the way that it's been constructed culturally over the course of the last 100 years.
Speaker 4:But as it pertains to divorce, what Paul's referring to is there's just this reality that divorce is probably the primary evil that has happened to children, and I don't know why it is, but there's this awful statistic that continues to sit out there, and until a generation gets bigger than the boomers, the fact is is that people who remain married have healthier children, no matter what's going on in the house, and that's absurd. It destroys my heart to believe that, but we don't have any evidence yet that that's not true. And of course there are extreme cases of abuse, all those kinds of things. We can get into other psychological factors, which is we know what the stability look like for a child's stability is knowing what to expect. That's what creates a good emotional fortitude for that child. But we're in really dicey waters already just by me sharing what I just shared.
Speaker 3:I mean, I mean, that's why I brought it in.
Speaker 2:Stir the shit up a little bit.
Speaker 3:Stirring it up what I heard from him and Mike, you know I love you and we've had some deep conversations and we're not taking anything personal today, but you've already been married. He talked about sticking things in with.
Speaker 2:Versace.
Speaker 3:Don't even press time, so what I'm hearing is Paul was married to Versace everybody, so you guys could take that.
Speaker 1:I just do want to jump in the same with his words only meant to me that I was married in July of 1981 in the backseat of a Camino. I did not know that till now.
Speaker 5:I kept thinking wow, I'd have a lot more clients if that was the case.
Speaker 1:Did you have a proper question to follow that? Yes, I would. I had one. I had one, unless you Go ahead because I'm just baffled right now.
Speaker 3:No, there's so many big words things I don't understand.
Speaker 1:The one I have for you to kind of tee it up a little bit so you can respond to what he said. But also this is that you, I love what Mike said because you're in a position I go out in Mollons and I publish a magazine, but you're in a position where you have someone come to you. Their perception of what a marriage is is ever changing, right?
Speaker 5:Well, and so here's what's funny is that I'm actually a divorce lawyer who loves marriage, Like I'm definitely a proponent of it. When people come into my office, the first question I ask is how much is it cost?
Speaker 2:I don't know. That's what they're asking.
Speaker 5:What I ask is have you tried, have you utilized all resources to try to save this marriage?
Speaker 5:Now, if somebody comes in and tells me that they're being beaten or they're in like you were talking about, like an extreme circumstance where they're being abused, obviously that's not what I'm gonna ask.
Speaker 5:But if it's, if the complaint is like, well, I just can't stand anymore the way he leaves the toothpaste out.
Speaker 5:I'm being obviously extreme in my example, but I am going to suggest to them that they go seek if they haven't already therapy, because I do feel like it is too easy to end a marriage.
Speaker 5:Right, it's too easy, but once you have I mean, it's not up to me to decide this, obviously but once someone has tried all the resources they have, you can tell that they are not taking the decision lightly, that it's difficult for them to even be there, and sometimes I have people come and see me three or four times over the course of a couple of years before they ultimately end up filing. It's the right thing for their family and I respect that. At the same time, I don't disagree with what you're saying with respect to it being too easy of a decision and people taking it too lightly. I guess, is how I want to say that. And yeah, I do see a problem with the way that people view marriage in our society, but my job is basically to kind of help them get to where they're trying to go as quickly and as painlessly as possible with the least amount of impact on the family.
Speaker 3:That's kind of how I see it. So, Mike's got me, Mike's just killing me.
Speaker 4:Can I round that out a little bit?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know again, what I shared was a scriptural view. It's not my personal view. So it's not as though I'm not amenable or I don't believe the same things you do. You know that they're. You know, if people knew me as a pastor when I was deep in the game, you know I've counseled hundreds of couples through these kinds of situations.
Speaker 4:I've advised many, many people to get divorced. They've gotten divorced. It's not as though I'm adhered to even the construct that's within the scripture, you know. But what I guess I want to identify further is that in a real spiritual construct, if we're talking about marriage, if we can imagine that it's a rope right, and if God did in fact give the law to Moses, the law is the center of this rope. It's a thick piece of twine, but the marital construct lives outside of that. It's multiple pieces of twine, and so you know, great sex is the one action that validates that moment. But that's just one piece of twine wrapped around this inner thing and those pieces of twine break. And you know, it's amazing to me how few Christians know what the law actually says in the Old Testament, which is that the reason for getting divorced was number one. There's something about that person that you can't stand the sight of them anymore. That was the first reason to get divorced. The other one was adultery, and they just killed them.
Speaker 2:Oh, there you go, fucking easier.
Speaker 3:I love that Now we're getting it going yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, it's Right up my alley now.
Speaker 4:It's a pretty strange thing when you bring it into that. And it was, and basically, god's perspective. If it was God who gave this law to Moses, it was that okay, you can get divorced twice, but don't do it a third time.
Speaker 2:Oh shit, oh, the third time. How come that's a third time?
Speaker 4:Oh well, well, back up third time, like if we're getting super pragmatic about it, that God's the greatest pragmatist, you know, when it comes to this. Like you know, if he was having a discussion with Moses about this and he was like, hey, this marriage thing that we've been doing and now you're bringing laws, he had the question what do I do about this thing? And it was like, well, you can get divorced twice if you can't stand the sight of them, if they screw somebody else, kill them. And other than that, if you're trying a third time, you know marriage is not good for you. I mean, like, just don't do it. I know that.
Speaker 5:Like I mean my understanding of the marriage basically that of course you know marriage is a sacred thing, right, and the Bible gives us many verses about how God views how husbands should treat his wife and how a wife should treat their husband, and that if there is adultery, that basically is grounds for a divorce. But I think it's also clear that our body is a temple and we're not supposed to be in situations where we're it's not. God would not want us to be in a situation where we were being abused, and abuse takes many forms. It's not just physical, mental, emotional, financial, psychological. Those forms of abuse, in my opinion, are significantly worse than physical.
Speaker 4:Because I agree with your opinion.
Speaker 5:And I would say that God would not want us to be in a situation like that. And if we do find ourselves in that situation, I think that, frankly, that the Bible gives us permission to get divorced.
Speaker 2:Right not kill, and then no no, no, it says kill.
Speaker 1:And now I'll go back to Mike and I's podcast, because this is what I bring to the table, because I don't believe in any of all that. I think we're like 200,000 years old as a species we'd recognize. I think we'd recognize the culture we live in for probably 50 to 70,000 years. And then these rules we're talking about, these words we're talking about now. You're talking about dividing a couple thousand years into 200,000 years as a species, into 70,000 years of what we recognize as a culture, so the fact that we have a 50% divorce rate-.
Speaker 3:Oh I think it's 60. Actually, I have this. It's my fun fact Okay.
Speaker 1:Oh wait, hold on. Let's see, Hang on, this is gonna be random.
Speaker 3:Hey, for half of you people that are listening, you're gonna get divorced. So pay goddamn fucking attention to this. And if you've been married once, your second or third marriages, you have a 64 and 72%. So you better fucking pay close attention to us today. And number three is 73%. Sorry to interrupt. That was my back. No, that's actually a perfect time for 73%.
Speaker 1:But again and I'm not sitting there reining on the pray, but I come from a perspective that we 60% let's use that working number that we fail more than we succeed at something that in the context of a species and a culture we just started doing, like in the context of our time, like the things we would recognize if you get to the other side of the argument a human culture, hunter-gatherers, all of these things, the complexity that I hear at the table are these laws, these rules, what's written? We just wrote it in the context of what we know, and so that's always an interesting perspective that I have on it, because, you know, I too believe in marriage. You know, I deeply do. I believe in connecting. I think we're swimming upstream, connecting with somebody and saying never going to do that other thing again that I like doing a lot, you know, I mean, I was what is that? What's that the marriage part where the member goes into the other person? Is that what it is? No, my member is going to do another person.
Speaker 2:How many times then?
Speaker 1:I've been married 117 times. There you go.
Speaker 3:What's wrong with this wrist, oh?
Speaker 1:yeah, I forgot about that one, but if you get that, that's just a small take. As I'm listening, that's a perspective I have. Again, it's no disrespect to the process, what it is, it's almost my admiration. I think we're doing something very hard in marriage.
Speaker 5:So why do you think the statistics are so high for a divorce Too?
Speaker 2:easy nowadays.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a good question, too easy.
Speaker 2:I think it's too easy nowadays.
Speaker 3:I think there's too much infidelity in my opinion. I think okay, and if you're going to go out and I'm just going to be polite, screw-. That's not my-.
Speaker 3:If you're going to go screw somebody else, fucking California is a great place to do it. If you're in Florida, yeah, you better bring your fucking checkbook if you're going to go out and be infidelity because you're going to pay for it, not in California, that's a question I have for you. Why, why? I am happily married now and everybody knows this is my third marriage, paul, so let's fucking get it out of the way. And I love sex and sex is great. Okay, marriage.
Speaker 3:And the reality, though, is in marriage. I mean, this fucking mic is throwing everything Sex is, marriage Sex is marriage. But, what I'm trying to say is it's like no one's penalized and it's such a sanctuary of being with one person and no one in California is penalized from. And I understand. We're not going into all the mental stuff right now. Mike's staring at me, but I'm talking from a financial part of it.
Speaker 1:So when you're part of cheats on you it doesn't matter in California Fuck that bitch, she gets half. What is that? Wait, let's stop.
Speaker 2:Or him it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Well, he just made a statement that people say things so confidently that I sense bullshit. Is what he said true that California doesn't matter?
Speaker 5:That is correct. This is no fault state meaning that you can you know?
Speaker 2:Hey, you can put your dick into anything. It's no fault of yours.
Speaker 5:And it doesn't financially.
Speaker 3:Oh well, Time out or your vagina can go around a dick. I'm tired of that because it works the other way it works the other way, thank you.
Speaker 5:Sorry pastor, that's not reality. Is that this is a no fault thing and I'll take it a step further. You can't, even because people will ask me this question often. In my prenuptial agreement Can I include a clause that says if you cheat on, if my, you know, so-and-so cheats on the other person, they get paid X or this happened, that happens. You can't do that.
Speaker 2:You can't do that.
Speaker 5:No, you cannot. It's against public policy.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 5:So you cannot have any type of clause like that in your prenuptial agreement.
Speaker 1:So we got the. I want to get the answer. What's your answer for? Why is the divorce rate so high?
Speaker 4:Mike. So I think we're going to head into legal territory here. I think it's the difference between covenants and contracts, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Why the divorce rate so?
Speaker 4:high? Yeah, I do, because I think, culturally, if we understood the concept of covenant, you know, which I kind of described with that rope theory. You know that. You know, in an ideal form, you know I performed hundreds of marriages the idea of doing it in public is a sense of accountability, right? It's like this is the culture that you're marrying into in one way or the other and there's a covenant within that culture.
Speaker 4:You know, primarily back when we had one, when we had a culture, when you know, when there were atheists showing up to church on Sunday, that's just what you did. It's not that church was relevant, as that was community. You know, when there was a community aspect to as a portion of that covenant, it just had a different feel to it. So the more we've become independent as people, the more freedom we've experienced, the less attachment, you know, actually basically due to fiduciary realities, you know, like people are more independent, they don't need their family to get ahead. With that independence comes independent mindedness and, and you know there's a lot of psychology and a lot of spirituality we can address with that. But you know, I'm just not sure what the parameters of the conversation are going to lead to. So, so how are the cultures imploding? Marriage is going to implode with that.
Speaker 5:Well, I think also the stigma that used to be attached to being divorced no longer exists, because if you think about like I think about kids, my kids now, and I would say the majority of their friends, have divorced parents. When I was growing up that was a rarity. Totally yeah, I think that is also that played a big part.
Speaker 1:And I wonder if I think you there'll be a fun one to. We've got 12 phones around here, but it'd be fun to Google that because I do feel like 60 is a high number as compared. I did feel like when I was growing up in the 80s it was a 50-50 kind of thing. So it's up at least 8, 10 percent.
Speaker 5:It feels like no, no, no, no, no, I'd say less than 80.
Speaker 1:It was way less than 80. In the 80s, oh yeah.
Speaker 5:No no no no.
Speaker 2:I'd say like 30 percent.
Speaker 4:No, no, we're, we're. I'm going to hit you guys hard here. We we are, generation Gen X face the biggest existential crisis, because the divorce rate was 30 percent and in our life cycle of being children it went to 50 percent.
Speaker 5:Oh, interesting, so so so.
Speaker 3:How old were you and when was Pornhub invented? Well, you know that's. There's a correlation. I'm telling you.
Speaker 4:How was that possible? I don't, I don't think so.
Speaker 3:You go back and look and when my parents are married, there was no Pornhub.
Speaker 2:There was almost such a thing fucking porn.
Speaker 5:Well, I think that there. I mean I definitely think that there's easier access. It's called the hooker on the street Right, I mean it's, it's, there's. It was a lot harder to uh partake in those types of activities. Uh, you know, because you would have to.
Speaker 3:Bye Frank.
Speaker 5:To you have, you'd have to go. You'd have to go into a store. You'd have to go buy the magazine, you'd have to go do that. Nowadays you just go on your phone. You can be sitting at the you know, in the bathroom at the coffee shop doing whatever you want to do.
Speaker 1:It's a really good point. You had to earn your porn in the seventies and eighties.
Speaker 5:And nowadays you can just not only that, but you can also meet people so much easier, Right? If I want to just go hook up with some guy in an hour, I can just go on. That's what Brian did, and I can go get married again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know porn is the first porn in these, in the old school porn porn is your first introduction to um misdemeanor crime, stealing Cause. Who had the porn? Your parents, your dad, yeah, and guess what? You would steal a magazine, you'd steal a subscription from your buddy's house. You knew where the stack was. But that was the beginning of the conspiring to take something from somebody else and even replace it. But it's it's. It's an interesting point you made about you had to work harder at it back then.
Speaker 2:Right, so by checking that personality. Is that cheating? Then? What's that? Looking at the magazine, I don't think that I don't think looking at the magazine is cheating.
Speaker 5:I think that my point is is that?
Speaker 2:I set mic up on this one.
Speaker 5:My point is is that that leads to, or can lead to, then meeting somebody online and getting in an affair, then infidelity, then your relationship, your marriage is toast. Yeah Right, because now you've, because you're already element of thinking about that person. Right, and you just added an element of um even though you didn't touch Tim Her dishonesty. Well, I'm assuming that something occurred, right?
Speaker 2:Nothing, nothing occurred. You're just looking at it, fantasizing about it. Did you touch the magazine? Didn't touch it.
Speaker 5:Didn't touch myself either. You plant the idea in your head. It leads to action, and then action leads to further action, and then that leads to divorce.
Speaker 3:So I I mean we could get so deep, but I gotta, I gotta switch this a little bit. I'll give my.
Speaker 1:I'll give my, I'll give my last answer on the divorce rates. Mine is this is one that is well traveled on. Our podcast with my wife is like the simple sentence for me is that and this is just my experience with my friends, families, my friends all through my life is that ends up being a distinct lack of perspective and refusal of equity that causes divorces. And by equity I mean I don't mean money, I mean like equity in the room, like you are a human on the planet and we're doing this together. Now you don't get that when you get married at 21, but you got to fight for it.
Speaker 1:The perspective one's the bigger one, the perspective one, the highs and lows. Cause here's what gets some of my friends divorced is like they put too much emphasis in the high points and too much emphasis in the low points. Neither of those are real, but vacation's not real. So when you come back on a Monday and you're chasing the kids and you feel like less than cause you're not in Barbados, well, that's you, that's your perspective, and what you're doing is you're starting to poison the well of your marriage by having an expectation, like if I wasn't here chasing the kids with her, I could just be banging that chick in the closet at work and my life would be exciting again and I would be that person that I want.
Speaker 1:So I think it's a. I think it's a lack of maturity, lack of maturity Equity Equity is a big thing for me because I think if you give equity and you, you don't, and you have to mean it and part of it would be, I guess, financial kind of like as far as transparency in your financials. Equity, as far as standing in the room like shedding the, the, the armor of patriarchy a little bit and giving somebody equity, I think you have a better chance at staying married.
Speaker 5:And I think that that also is. That is about respect Totally.
Speaker 1:It's in that totally. Yep, you have to mean it. You can't say it Cause, just like we were talking about the kids earlier, they know when there's a divorce going on. You can be at a dinner and say how much you respect your wife. She fucking knows if you do or don't, and so that's the thing, and that eventually, even complimenting your wife and saying the right things, to think that they don't know you know whether that is a true respect or not. That's where I see divorces happen, cause eventually one of the other says fuck this, I don't have equity in this relationship and why am I here for 49 when my whole life I've I've wanted more than less, that's perfect.
Speaker 3:Don't say 49. Let's say 10 years. I got to get back on where I'm at, cause there are half these people are listening to shit right now or thinking about a divorce. Not good, I'm just saying it's a reality where we live today and so if you are prepping, you're welcome. So we've. We've got how many people? I'm just going to throw a few questions out, which we all know is going to lead to more shit. But how many divorce attorneys, roughly, do you think there are here in San Lucas County?
Speaker 5:Oh, that's a great question. I'm going to throw out a number of, let's say, 20.
Speaker 3:Are they all the same?
Speaker 5:Oh no, not at all. No, Interestingly enough, I would say that there is I'm thinking in my head right now. It's an area of law where you find more female attorneys than you do male attorneys. Typically, in every other area of law you'll it's the opposite, but family law does tend to draw more women to the profession, to that area of law.
Speaker 3:And the empathy with women is phenomenal. Your website, so I'm going to quote something on your website, darling. It says work with an attorney who understands how to resolve an issue throughout creating more problems. I love this statement. I've been to court. Actually, I think I'm the only one in this room, besides course, darlene, right, I've been through divorce. I'm pasture.
Speaker 4:I'm 32 years.
Speaker 3:Okay, so everyone here is married except me, so there's going to be a one sided conversation. That's going to happen, but that's fine. When I'm in court, I listen to other attorneys and dealing with other attorneys, they're like the opposite of you. Okay, I sat there when I was representing myself and just listening to these attorneys and they want to. I understand. It's job security by creating emotions between the people that are getting divorced. Right, let's write this letter and let's get under them and then we're going to respond back and back and back and divorces take six months. Correct, if you do everything correctly in California, or incorrect.
Speaker 5:Six months is the soonest a court can stamp your divorce final from when you file.
Speaker 1:But that long it's that long.
Speaker 5:They have a six month automatic waiting period in California. It doesn't mean you can't get all your stuff in ahead of time and get it done. But in all honesty, most divorces are not done within six months and I do agree that there are a number of attorneys who like to unnecessarily drag things out because that's how they make a living, though, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Let's be real.
Speaker 5:But here's the way I look at it. If you're good at what you do and you have a happy client, that's how you get referrals. I mean, I don't advertise on TV, I'm not advertising on billboards. My client base is from referrals from other clients and other colleagues.
Speaker 3:So I, you know, and if you're listening to this, it's hard, because you started off having conversations and then you guys carried on and of course, then people had sex and then they got married. At one point everybody was very happy. Right, and my point, which we deal we have you on here because we deal with a lot of divorces or people talking about it, wondering what their quote options are. Right, cause everyone wants to understand the financial side, which we're going to get into real quick here. But when you go through that, I tell everyone of my people I say, listen, at one point everybody was happy. You two made decisions together. If you have to hire an attorney, go ahead, but still make your decisions. And then if you can't agree on one thing, then let the attorney see if they can agree on it. And then I said if they can't, you're going to go to some third independent party, a judge, who's going to make your life's decisions on your behalf. And whether you like it or not, and if you're listening, I'm telling you it's important that you have a good attorney on your side too.
Speaker 3:I was just in court. I was going after my daughter no names, she knows who she is in Capitola. She attacked me. She this was prior. She attacked me. She doubled her fee before I went into court to try to get me to go accuse me of everything of the book. You're getting forensic accounting, you're getting this, you're getting that. And I was politely like fuck you. You're one of the dumbest attorneys I've ever met, yet You're still trying to buffalo me when this isn't about me and my finances. I know it comes down a little bit because of kids and everybody, every, every man and every woman wants to take care of their children. I Highly believe that at least 95%, I can say.
Speaker 5:I don't think that's true. I don't. I was gonna say that too I know that's how you are, brian, but unfortunately that is not true. There are a number of deadbeat parents out there, both men and women frankly, not just men.
Speaker 3:I saw that.
Speaker 5:I did, and it's really sad because you would think that if you have a child Walking around, that you would want to at least Financially support them, if you're not gonna emotionally be there for them. But no, there's a number of parents who just, you know, don't care. I don't understand it, but that's unfortunately the way it is.
Speaker 3:I mean I did, I sat in court and I did and honestly, there were a lot of males that do like I don't care if I get to see my kids or not.
Speaker 5:Well then, not only that, but they also don't want to pay, right, so they're gonna. I think one guy right now, who you know is, was working a case earlier today where he's claiming that he doesn't get any type of income. He's claiming he doesn't work when we all know he does, but he gets paid cash and he's doing it to avoid having to pay child support for his child. I mean, it sounds, you know, for you guys it probably sounds outrageous, but unfortunately that's pretty typical in the world.
Speaker 3:I yeah, working. So I divorced and our children were younger. I Fought for my kids but the court did not feel. Because I honestly feel to this day, I feel like, and I'm gonna go talk to those- guys.
Speaker 3:I know Mike's gonna handle this, those guys that I felt like being a male Okay, I'm just gonna say this, being a male fighting for my children. They were too young for them to give me 50 50, even though I have. I've been a parent just as long as the girl's mom. We both were capable, right. However, since the girls were younger, in my case, it took a while for the judge to come around and really realize, okay, this guy can Be a good co-parent or be a father and take care of their kids, and I feel there's still a stigma today, if you're a male and you want your kids 50%, that you gotta fight harder.
Speaker 5:I did.
Speaker 5:So I would definitely say that, even as of like 10 years ago, there was definitely a stronger bias on the bench where I felt like they favored Moms over dads, right.
Speaker 5:That there was kind of this attitude of, well, you know, mom's the primary parent, so the kids need to be with her more. I mean the the, the standard that the court is supposed to use is what's in the best interest of the kids, and the problem that I see is that I mean in our society now you have a lot of moms who are working and dads who are the stay-at-home dads, right. So I do think that the stigma is changing and I do think that the bench is seeing it too, because I would say, like right now, that the current bench is pretty pro dad, meaning that it's pretty easy to get 5050 for dads, assuming that that's the best thing for for the kids and, you know, dad's okay, but barring any like Addiction or abuse issues, there's really no reason why a father shouldn't have 50%. Again, it's Considered to be in the best interest of the children to have both parents equally involved in their lives, because they bring different things to the Table.
Speaker 2:I got a question real quick. The people are making these decisions. They judges have they been divorced and how many have they been divorced or not?
Speaker 5:or even married. I mean, that's the interesting thing and that's what you goes back to. What Brian was saying is that if you are Wanting to handle your divorce in a smart way and the judges will even tell you this you don't want them making decisions about your life you should be able to figure it out yourself through counsel, with advice of counsel, with your, your spouse or soon-to-be ex-spouse, because do you really want a Third party, someone who has no investment or interest really in your family, saying what's gonna happen with your kids, you know what, what the schedule is gonna be, where they're gonna spend Christmas, you know that's if you think about it. It's just.
Speaker 5:It seems somewhat asinine to think that we're gonna give that much power to someone else to decide when you and the other parent should put aside your differences and Come up with some kind of plan that's best for your kids.
Speaker 2:So another question that then do you see a lot of when you're getting divorced, which I'm seeing right now one person drags the divorce on for so long is because they Don't want to, do not want to let go of what they have. I think it's a control thing.
Speaker 5:I think it's a definite issue that people are not always Emotionally on the same page. When they come to see me, I, I, I will have one person come to me and just be, you know, befuddled as to why the other, their spouse, is not more motivated, and I'll explain. Listen, you're in a different place emotionally than your, than your husband. You were done a year ago. He's shocked that you're even filing. So you have to respect the fact that they're not emotionally in the same place. Now you can't really Drag it on because there's ways to prevent someone from doing that. But I mean it only takes one person to get divorced. You know, in the movies you always see like sign here you know dramatically to get divorced.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen that fucking thing so many times. I can tell you the whole damn thing. My wife loves that movie.
Speaker 5:I'm so glad she didn't pick the, the mayor's son.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen it. Thanks for the spoiler.
Speaker 3:I've got a little thing, go ahead. I know you were wanted to comment.
Speaker 4:No, actually I had a question for you Is it still primarily women that are initiating divorce statistics? No, no.
Speaker 5:No, I mean, I would say that's not the case, you know. What's interesting, though, is in the last like went through this phase where I saw this like influx of of moms with like really young children filing for divorce. It was like Cove in prior to code. No, it was prior to COVID and yeah, and I don't know if there was like if they were all friends or what was going on, but I just felt like that's all about toss, scott's Valley.
Speaker 3:I'm with you. You all know who you are, the real housewives of wherever.
Speaker 5:All of a sudden they were just you know. It was shocking to me because usually it's like the moms. Yeah like our kids are young, we need to keep the family together. And it was just like no, you know, I'm not happy anymore. I feel like I'm. You know, I need to get out more. And it was like wait a minute, you just had a. You know, you just had a newborn right to roll.
Speaker 5:What are you thinking? But you know, not my call, but I'm just saying that it was. It was interesting because I so to answer your question. No, I don't think it's necessarily one or the other. I think it's pretty equal.
Speaker 1:And I did have one little stat that I pulled up. I heard you talking there about the divorce lawyer and Stats as far as divorce.
Speaker 1:Yes and that's one of the looks up, because I was looking for some sweet burns on the attorney but I couldn't find it was that divorce attorneys and judges for that matter Significantly lower divorce rates than the national average, which I thought was interesting, you know, and it was. It was not by like five or ten, it was by like 15 to 25, depending on the different ones. I read and makes me wonder if the you know, kind of being under the hood a little bit Makes you sort of less inclined to go through the process.
Speaker 5:I have jokingly and I actually do mean this said this many times and, john, if you're listening, you know it's true that.
Speaker 3:She will fuck you, john, just so you know.
Speaker 5:If I wasn't a divorce lawyer, I would have been. I would have filed for divorce a long time ago. I mean, I've been married almost 20 years, but here's the thing.
Speaker 2:That's nothing. I got you beat.
Speaker 5:I know there's lots of people to do, but hi, mom and dad. But here the reality is is that I know what's involved. I know firsthand how it impacts the family, both just emotionally, the kids financially, the whole thing. So I it motivates me to work on my relationship and I honestly think that if people came to divorce court before they got there and actually sat in there for a day, they would think long and hard about the person they're marrying and ask themselves, wow, do I really want to do this?
Speaker 2:Right, you know, once they get there.
Speaker 5:They'd be really motivated to work on their relationship, because it's easy to just throw in the towel and say I'm bored, yeah, I want something more. I don't feel like I make you know he doesn't excite me anymore or she doesn't ever talk to me anymore. You know it's like the reasons a lot of the time are like hey, you know, work on it.
Speaker 3:Exactly if you want to have an affair and you're thinking about it, go to court. Exactly go sit there, it'll blow your mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's that's what I was thinking about. Going through the Catholic way, you have to go to a priest and talk with the priest and they said you should get married, not married. Well, our priest my wife came, was at Twin Lakes Church. I was Catholic background, so we had to go to both. He pretty much points that. He said we should not get married, period, I can't. The guys who I knew fucking forever said you two should not be married, and we were, so we're 23 at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah going through all this. And but the Christians? Guys like no, you guys be perfect, everything's great, yeah. But a Catholic dude said you two will not be married for the rest of your life.
Speaker 5:You're still married 27 freaking years.
Speaker 3:It's a hell, but he might have known when you went in a confession with Versace, so he probably knew your whole story. Paul, he'd be real, he knew some of the story.
Speaker 2:I'll give you that, but but that's where Talking about going into court, that's what I'm trying to get at is if you got to go see a priest and he, he or he has to tell you don't get married, you should go to a divorce court right as part of getting married. Hey, you need to go sit down right and listen to the whole, why you know yeah, yeah, I think you divorce.
Speaker 5:I've always said that. I've always said that I think it's a great idea.
Speaker 3:I would still be performing ceremonies, I guess, if I could use that as a prerequisite to perform it, go to divorce court, yeah, but here here's a big one and I don't understand this, and Hopefully you can dummy it down for everyone, because I get asked this and I can't. I feel like I'm a self-proclaimed expert in divorce. You are, but, darlene, can you explain long-term marriage versus short? Okay, not just 10 years, but why does it cost a leading wager or more money after that 10 years?
Speaker 5:So the different question that I'm statute right between. The definition of a long-term marriage by the statute is 10 years or more right. So if you're married for more than 10 years, in California it's considered a marriage of long duration, and the way that support then is calculated alimony or spousal support is Is Depends on whether it's a long-term marriage or a short-term marriage. The other big thing is, if you're married for 10 years or less and you're a short-term marriage, you're only looking at being obligated to pay spousal support or alimony for half the length. It's a half life rule.
Speaker 2:Yes, I had that. So if I got married 10 times or I've been married three times now, so I married my wife three times already.
Speaker 5:Well, we're gonna go off the last time you got married it you mean. What do you mean?
Speaker 2:I've been. I got married three. We've actually read it, he got revows.
Speaker 3:Is that a new marriage and not a lot in the law?
Speaker 5:That doesn't change. I thought you meant like you got divorced and then remarried.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I tried, I tried that one too.
Speaker 5:Yeah, no, if that didn't work out. The renewing of the vows means nothing.
Speaker 1:That doesn't mean anything based on my script, you've been married four times.
Speaker 3:So I have a. I have a simple thing and thank you for explaining that. So wouldn't it make sense, if couples actually love each other and they're in love and they're married, to Talk about a divorce at nine years and and get the divorce and get remarried again, which start would start over? Why can't California have a document that allows that? Because if I say, hey, if you are in love with me, okay, darling, we've been married nine years, we're going strong. A lot of people are not. They're waiting for that 10 years for a reason. And my point is is, if there was a document out there, I mean that would show me true love if somebody wanted to sign that document and just get remarried again 10 years. I talked to so many people that are like on the side saying I'm just waiting six more months Because it's a long-term marriage.
Speaker 5:I've been advised to wait six more months because financially and I know Mike's gonna drive you crazy, but if one party of Jack's wouldn't tell you there, he already kind of have their foot out the door- Well, I mean, here's the thing Nowadays, the bench is kind of caught onto this and so if you're married, if you're filing for divorce or you're getting divorced around that 10-year mark, they're gonna treat it like a short-term marriage, even though it isn't, and really I mean that's like a huge wager. In other words, to say, well, I'm gonna stick it out and be, I'm gonna stick miserable just to get that much more alimony. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 5:That's pretty sad. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Can I interject just for a minute, just not as a means to talk about the legal things. But this is what I was referring to is that when we begin these conversations about marriage, you can see how disintegrated it gets right, because there's these constructs that we've had to put within the law to justify particular positions based on emotional stuff that people are feeling. And I can tell you from experience that again, of the hundreds of couples I've canceled, for the most part you're only dealing with five or six elements. For men it's like hey, dude, pick up your socks, do some laundry, do the dishes and actually ask your wife how the fuck she's doing it and care like just care. And for most women it really comes down to a simple does the man feel respected for what he's putting in?
Speaker 4:And most of my counseling that I did for the marriages that were rescued in those situations were in a very simple fabric of what could be actually a fairly normal relationship and we're both gonna grow at different rates. It's not as though we arrived spaces at the same time, but again in the construct, the way that I'm trying to approach it. I don't wanna disrupt the approach because we're talking about marriage. Ending the process of marriage is a lifelong process because we are living our lives together and the choice is that we're gonna do this together. That's the spiritual construct, right? Is that? Through thick and thin, we're gonna do that. And so again, I kind of came in all armless statistics and whatever else, or we can talk about the foundations of the law, but the reality is, is that marriage is somehow still important? Because we know this, because people get divorced and it ruins people, like that is in essence kind of it does something to children mostly, but the adults in the room also wear that damage.
Speaker 5:Well, and you know what's interesting to follow.
Speaker 4:I'm damaged.
Speaker 5:Is not only that not only do they go through a divorce and they end up damaged, but they get remarried. So obviously they're willing to go through it again or risk it again for the benefit of marriage right.
Speaker 3:Every situation's different. I'll share mine. I got married young and I'm still business partners with her today. She didn't wanna have children and that was a huge thing for me. I grew up in a family, fun Panamanian family, everybody's doing and having a great time, and everybody got married young. Her family situation was different and so that wheel of wanting to have children wasn't really a high priority for her and was huge for me, and that was a lack of maturity, probably on both of our sides, when we got married because we were so young right, she's an awesome person, right, and so and we still talk and get along great to this day. It was just an element and I sat with a therapist and that therapist told me if you ever wanna be a dad, you need to get a divorce. Those were really hard words that I sat on for a very long time and but I knew for me outweighing being a father was bigger than being a husband.
Speaker 2:But doesn't she have two kids?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the funny part of it all now that fucking Paul.
Speaker 4:Just not with you, bro.
Speaker 2:She didn't want that pain in getting dick in her.
Speaker 1:There it is.
Speaker 2:Now, that's funny. There it is.
Speaker 1:Now, that's funny.
Speaker 5:But I think it goes back to what you were talking about, paul, where how it's important before you get married Like, for example, we went through counseling at Twin Lakes Church. And that was one of the things they made us talk about was you know, do you wanna have kids? Talk about your finances, talk about all these issues that cause, you know, people to get divorced, really upfront, before you actually get married, and I think if you had had that conversation at that time you could have avoided, you know.
Speaker 1:I would agree with you. And how long have you been married now?
Speaker 5:It'll be 20 years, 19 years.
Speaker 1:You're 32.
Speaker 2:I'm 37 coming up.
Speaker 3:Almost 30. Almost two. I'm not in this conversation, everybody.
Speaker 1:You're not even in this conversation.
Speaker 3:That's all that I'm. Looking at me so darling. What do attorneys cost an hour? If somebody is?
Speaker 5:It's a range. I charge 425 an hour. I mean, I know some attorneys who charge upwards of over the hill or like 700. But I'd say locally, I'd say the average is around, you know, 400, 450 an hour. I'm kinda right in the middle. I just recently raised my rate. I was like the same forever and then I was like wait a minute, this person over here who has way less experience than I do, is charging that. So yeah, 425 an hour.
Speaker 1:That's a fair wage for how much these guys are robbing everybody in real estate oh here we go, there we go oh my God, by the way, seems kinda cheap.
Speaker 2:That's coming up too. I just heard Commissions, so they take.
Speaker 3:I'm at 1,000 bucks an hour, so I have a.
Speaker 5:okay, that's awesome, that's awesome.
Speaker 4:Good job, Paul.
Speaker 3:So when people are looking at money is a big part of divorce, okay, I just that's an elephant in a room, it's a reality. When people are thinking of going through it, right, some men, some women are scared because maybe the other side handles all the finances. They don't understand everything. I am a huge believer, but I got put into that corner. Personally. I was like, okay, whether I was outside the house or inside the house, it didn't matter. You are a team, you are a couple. That's part of marriage. You're working together. I'm totally fine with splitting it all down the middle. I'm talking first marriage folks. So it's like splitting it all down the middle, working together. It doesn't matter who left the house and who stayed in the house, right? Why do you see with court sometimes that the person who is outside the house everyone, by the way, if you're listening to this everyone is entitled to have an attorney? Okay, they want it to be fair. It's a due process. Is that correct?
Speaker 5:So it's not like criminal law where you're entitled to counsel, like you won't get a counsel appointed for you, but there is a family code section specifically that it's 2030 that allows a party that there's a disparity of income to ask the court to have the other side pay for your attorney's fees.
Speaker 3:So there's my question to you. We're all equals. I look at it okay and we're married and we built this together you deserve half. Why, when that happens and it usually gets works out that way it splits down half. But when it comes to attorney's costs, usually the primary pays their own attorney and then has to pay a portion of the other partner. When it's all equal equity, At the end of the day it's all equal equity and it should be equal equity.
Speaker 5:Well, unfortunately, there's all kinds of reasons why people end up in court. Sometimes it's for inappropriate reasons, sometimes someone is filing motions and doing things they shouldn't be doing, and so it's not really fair for both sides to have to pay for it. So there's, things called sanctions, like I might ask for sanctions against this other, the other side, because they're unnecessarily dragging this out. There's a section, there's a code section that allows for that in the family code Specifically. So not everything, unfortunately, is equitable, or it's supposed to be.
Speaker 5:It's a court of equity, family law, but unfortunately not everyone treats it that way and sometimes takes advantage of the other person or does things they shouldn't be doing, and so the law allows for sanctions and situations like that. Ideally, attorney's fees should be, and that's. The other thing is that what I charge in a case may be a fraction of what the other side is charging. Just to give you an idea, I just recently came across this information. I've been representing this particular client, and in the last year I've charged him 25,000. The other side has charged wife 540,000.
Speaker 3:Oh fuck.
Speaker 5:So just to give you an idea of the disparity now granted, once in San Francisco and I'm here and they probably have like three lawyers working on the case, whereas it's just me. But ironically, the other side has been through like three or four lawyers now and I've been with my guy the whole time. So yeah, bottom line is that you don't wanna be splitting the fees in that case because it hasn't been equitable at all.
Speaker 5:So, and there are, like you know, there are attorneys who will purposely just churn up fees and do that because that's how they're.
Speaker 3:Well, I think they try to push you around a little bit, like you know, and some people are gonna be pushed and some some are not. You know, I'm a huge believer and it's funny, my marriage with Wendy there's no prenuptial agreement. My second marriage, the first one, I'm like we're all starting off this together, boom. Second one I had a prenuptial agreement. I want your thoughts because I went through it. I also know who I was marrying, but I wanted a prenuptial agreement. But what are your sorry Mike what are your thoughts on prenuptial agreements? I?
Speaker 5:So I do draft them. There's very few attorneys.
Speaker 3:Are you going in negative to a marriage if you want one of those?
Speaker 5:I don't think so, and here's why Because I look at it as a life insurance policy. We don't wanna die, we don't plan to die I mean, eventually we will but you take out a life insurance policy in case of and it's just like with a prenupt You're doing a prenupt in case of and you to save yourself the headache down the road of dealing with attorneys and everything else. And the other thing I like about prenupts is it forces couples to talk about their finances and how they're gonna handle things before they get married. So I do like prenupts for that reason. I know that there's like this, this kind of unromantic connotation with them, but not really the case anymore Because, honestly, more and more people are getting married for the second time or the third time and they wanna protect their assets.
Speaker 2:That's what I was asking. Do you see that more the second time?
Speaker 5:Absolutely. Yeah, they wanna protect their assets for their kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but there's a part of this, too, that it just can't help me think of, that classic saying, like you know, repeating the same event and expecting a different outcome, and so-.
Speaker 5:Is the definition of insanity.
Speaker 1:It's insanity and like we're talking about the numbers we know about let's say it was 40 and then 50 and 60% divorce rate and I know, doing a little bit of the homework last week second marriage divorce rates are higher than first Right by a percent. So there's a. I'm listening to all of this right now and thinking like what are we doing? And so, whatever's happening, we're worse at it than we were in granted, a lot of that might've been people just suffering through the misery of having no way to get out of a marriage. That might be the tick up, but in particular, the advent or not the advent but the increase of the use of prenuptials in second marriages and third marriages with worse divorce. They're not figuring it out.
Speaker 5:Right, I mean, I think. Part of it, though, is too. Is that with I don't know? I mean? Unfortunately, even prenuptial agreements are subject to attack.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 5:So even if you do have a prenupt, it's not like a guarantee that-. Did you just?
Speaker 3:hold up. So mine held up, but it held up for a couple reasons. One, that she had to have another independent attorney review it and agree to it, which we did. And what's funny is my court case turned around. I didn't know what I was doing when I was representing myself, staying up every night and. But once I learned the law in terms of learning how to do paperwork correctly and I will use his name and I have the utmost respect for Judge Siegel um, but he demanded a lot of me because I didn't know what I was doing and he didn't care. He's like this is the law.
Speaker 3:And once I started learning the law, things started turning a little bit on my way. When we were almost done, I said when are we going to talk about the prenuptial agreement? And he was so upset that her counsel did not bring that into the equation and, honestly, it changed right away. Attorney's fees he said no, I agreed with everything except the attorney's fees and the divorce, which normally I would have to pay for, because that was just our situation. Yeah, as soon as I brought up the prenup on that day the attorney's fees and I told your honor, you have the right to waive those. You can overrule the law on the attorney's fees and he did Our divorce. When that was done we were expecting at least another eight months. It was done in two weeks. When I found out I had a prenup, he looked at that attorney. He was pissed.
Speaker 1:Do you have a percentage, like a bullshit percentage in your head of like in your career, like what percentage of prenups hold up like just a random, is it? Oh gosh?
Speaker 5:I would say that well, so there's two. That's kind of a hard question to answer because of this sorry, I can never give a directing to a lawyer.
Speaker 3:No, it's a little 425 an hour.
Speaker 2:Actually more than that now.
Speaker 5:Prenuptial agreements have different components to it, right? So many of them have spousal support waivers. The spousal support waivers rarely hold up. In fact, I usually will recommend my clients and not even put them in there because they are subject to attack. Now there's always a severability clause in them, which means that just because that's invalid, it doesn't make the whole thing invalid. So to answer your question directly, I would say that the spousal support provisions rarely hold up. But the prenups themselves would hold up as long as they meet all the qualifications that are required by the code, which are very specific Independent counsel, a waiting period, you know all these things are outlined in the family code.
Speaker 5:As to what you have to do to have a valid prenup, as long as you meet those, you're good because it's a contract. It's no different than marriage is a contract and we have the same fiduciary duties that business partners have. So, just like you two business partners, you guys, if you were married, or right now, if you were to sign a contract to go buy a building next door, that's the same.
Speaker 1:It would have the same enforcement enforceability as a prenup tool agreement If one was to spontaneously get married when they were 21 and stay married for 33 years but their wife ended up doing very well. Could I get a prenup now?
Speaker 5:No, that would be called a post-nup.
Speaker 3:But you can do a post-nup you can do a post-nup.
Speaker 5:It's called a marital agreement. It's the same thing as a prenup. It's just signed after the marriage and sometimes I will actually. If someone comes to me and says we're going to the Bahamas next week to get married, can you do my prenup? I'm gonna say hell, no, right, because you don't meet any of the the qualifications. You have to come to me at least 30 days before your wedding date. But I will tell you come back to me after the honeymoon and I'll do your post-nup at nine years, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 3:Why? Because what happens if it doesn't? You're gonna find out right then. And there I'm not signing that. Guess what I'm really sorry, mike, I'm out.
Speaker 1:I'm really starting to do it now. I owe you for four and a half years. Goodbye, starting to understand this number three, number over here I'm really starting to understand.
Speaker 3:I'm coming from the bitter side of everything. You guys are all the sweets, I, but I've been there.
Speaker 2:There's no sweet side to any If you've been married the longest we have there's. No, there's ups and downs with fucking everything Right. I mean my wife on the divorce, me fucking Costa Rica time.
Speaker 3:I asked your wife yeah, and it's funny that you brought up the scripture. But I asked your wife she knows. I said, kimmy, if you and Paul were ever to divorce, what would happen is, she said, he'd kill me she knows that.
Speaker 1:Now we're on the record, everyone. It's just became shares department's waiting outside. Yeah, only murders in the building. This just became a different podcast.
Speaker 2:It's fucking cheaper. It's insanity.
Speaker 4:I want to add something. You know some of the 39 cent problem Brian said earlier.
Speaker 2:What 25 is that.
Speaker 4:You know, when we talk about cultural fabric like this is, I mean to me, the intent of the law. You know the reason why the logs. This is for when problems happen and the people who are involved in that problem can't make a decision, so some judicious process goes on. So you know I don't want to sound cynical To what you're saying, brian that maybe someone's not good at it their second or third time. Actually, there's new realities in the cultural implications. Are the culture has answered? Is that these prenupties are end up being the cultural answer to the fabric of those issues? You know so. You know this is how the law does graduate into culture and expectation, and so where people don't know how to make decisions collectively, like where the group would naturally support it, now the law then supports it. That is the nature of law in my perception. Yeah, is that there's a problem? If the people don't have an answer, the law has an answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So and that could be ingrained into culture and I think that's, this is what's getting normalized and it's not a bad thing to me, you know. I think it's a good thing because, again to your point, in a counseling situation it gets real honest, real fast, totally.
Speaker 1:Brian, did you have a blitzkrieg? Did you get through your list pretty good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got through my list. I kind of get in a time right at time. So I want to ask Darlene, I mean, before we close, how can people you know, if they can't get a hold of Mike, how are they going to call you? Mike, you want to put your number in. Are you still counseling people before I? As I just cut her off, or no.
Speaker 4:I'm debating on that, not not with you. It's been on. I'm good now dude For five years.
Speaker 3:I guess we'll just push it over to Darlene, can you?
Speaker 4:imagine my coward life coach. That just sounds weird.
Speaker 1:Do you do packages or anything like if I say I'm going to pay up front for like three, oh yeah, oh, can I get a discount? I'm asking, I'm asking for a friend. No, it's funny, I had someone ask me to write it up to me.
Speaker 5:I mean if I take cases on contingency and I'm thinking myself contention on what, like what would be the contingency? No, I don't take cases on cases on. And to answer your question, well, my website is D camp law dot com, but best way to reach me is my I mean Google, right? Darlene Kemp attorney. I'm an aptos 6880700. If you need a consultation, I do charge by my hourly rate, and now consultations are either over zoom or in person.
Speaker 1:Here's our home address everyone, if you don't want to get up and close and let's do the fair thing For the people that are running for their divorce right now give the phone number one more time, because now they have a pencil.
Speaker 5:Oh sure, 6880700.
Speaker 3:And I will say I've seen quite a bit with different attorneys, both from the being in the real estate side, because we have to sit there and listen to both sides, and there's 20, maybe 20 plus divorce attorneys out there. And Darlene, I'm going to commend you because you seem to cut through a lot of the shit quicker, which honestly I think helps everyone emotionally wise. The longer people fight, there's more emotions and it takes longer, and if you have children, there's a business side of divorce. If you're listening, get the business side of divorce just done right so you can start focusing on your emotional side. And that's important because I think some attorneys just don't want to do that because that's how they make a living. I get it. I get it.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I know it's. The other kind of key thing I just want to throw out there is that there's this kind of misconception that mediation is somehow like a friendlier way to go, like we have to go. We have to go see a mediator, and I do believe that mediation is a good thing. Don't get me wrong, and there's a fabulous mediator in town who just is mediation. I'm not a posher, I'm not a posher rose.
Speaker 5:Yeah, right, but the reality is is that that's what we do, like good attorneys? That's what we're trying to do? We're trying to reach an agreement, quote unquote mediate outside a court. You don't want to go to court?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 5:You start to settle as much as possible out of court. Right you don't have to go to like a formal mediation to get your divorce done. You know you can come to me or come go to another lawyer and say you know, I want to get this settled, I want to get this.
Speaker 3:And you don't want to go to court. And, like I said, if you're considering seriously, what days are Divorce Court, because people can go in there and sit back.
Speaker 5:Every day of the week. Restraining orders are on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Those are always really fun to listen to.
Speaker 2:We should go do podcasts in there. That'd be fun, right? But?
Speaker 5:no, every day. Courts every morning at 8 30. You can go down to the. Watsonville court house and go into department C or D and listen to. You know what two people who had kids together, what they're doing now.
Speaker 3:And you will be blown away by going and by the way, you're explaining all of your personal stuff in front of a bunch of people that you don't even know to, which is really airing all your dirty laundry.
Speaker 5:And yeah, some people have a lot of it and it's yeah.
Speaker 3:More reason to hire. Hire an attorney and just get the agreement done. And get it done so you can focus emotionally. Darling Mike, I mean we just can't thank you enough.
Speaker 2:Thank you both.
Speaker 4:Thank you Thanks for inviting me. Thank you, darling.
Speaker 5:That was awesome, thank you, thanks, guys.